The VELCRO principle: Aligning values, leadership, and reputation in customer service

Transcript

Intro – 00:00:03: Generative AI takes the center stage. But is your enterprise still watching from the sidelines? Come on in, let’s fix that. This is Not Another Bot, the generative AI show, where we unpack and help you understand the rapidly evolving space of conversational experiences and the technology behind it all. Here is your host, TJ.

TJ – 00:00:20: Hello and welcome to Not Another Bot, the Trinity AI show. I’m your host, TJ. Joining us today is Yoram, an authority in customer-centric culture implementation. Having led pivotal roles in trilogy and decisive action grips, Yoram’s expansive journey spans from being a serial entrepreneur since 1985 to becoming a best-selling author. His dedication to optimizing customer success, support, and service, particularly in the B2B and B2B to CSAS sectors, is nothing short of remarkable. From eliminating case backlogs or creating agile, scalable teams, Yuram embodies the union of strategy and execution. His innovative frameworks like the life design method and the decisive action protocol exemplify his commitment to meaningful success in both professional and personal realms. A champion of both technology and the human touch. Your arm offers a wealth of insights into the dynamic world of custom experience and reputation management. Massive welcome and a warm welcome, I should say, to our show.

I realized that the success of our customers is directly linked to the success of our company. And if our customers are not successful, then we’re not successful. And that’s when I decided to really focus on optimizing customer success, support, and service.

Yoram Baltinester

VP of CS at Trilogy

Yoram Baltinester – 00:01:27: Thank you so much for having me on the show. It’s truly remarkable. And now I’m duly intimidated by my own introduction. So I’m gonna do my best leg up to it and we’ll see what happens.

TJ – 00:01:38: Well, we are all intrigued and we are super excited. Not only the experiences, but the way you kind of express your thoughts is absolutely critical for our audiences to learn from. We are pumped to have you here. All right, let’s get started. So my first question, Yoram, is, what From starting as a serial entrepreneur in 1985 to a recent role and as an author and coach, your journey is incredibly diverse. Can you talk us through some of the most pivotal moments that led you to this point in your career?

Yoram Baltinester – 00:02:06: When I started my entrepreneurship career, I started it and I developed some software, and I started to get into the market. And what happened is the market shifted under my feet. And believe it or not, my first creation was in the world of DOS. So I developed some software above DOS, which was the disk operating system on the personal PC for our Gen Zs. And when I went into the market, just because I wasn’t quite aware of what was going on around me, I realized that the market is moving into windows. And it kind of rendered a lot of what I did obsolete. And when that happened, I had a choice to make. I could either invest heavily and port my software to Windows, which was not really a very stable operating system back at the beginning, or I could port it into Unix because Linux didn’t exist yet. And I didn’t want to make either of these choices. So I decided to go with this brand new thing called Internet and TCP IP. And there was no better place to go than to the corporate world, that place where I started and I literally became an evangelist for TCP IP, which today would make people laugh. But back then, you’d find me sitting with, let’s say, the CIO of Deutsche Bank or some other large organization trying to convince them that TCP IP is superior and it is the future and it will supersede IBM SNA, which was like sacrilegious at that point in history. So I did that and this company brought me to America. And being in America, I found myself a few years later in a transition. And that transition was from a company where I served as a director of strategic alliances. And I dealt with the largest customers, they have Compaq and HP and Dell and Verizon and Voicestream and things like that and LG. And I had the whole thing lined up to go into the next company. I was going to start a professional services profit unit for a manufacturer who dealt with the Bluetooth firmware in wearable devices. Great. Everything was said and done. And then, you know, my last day on the job that I was leaving was the Friday. I took my friends to lunch. Two of them were leaving. I was leaving. Everybody was happy. And that was on the Friday. But on Tuesday, it was September 11th of 2001. I had zero contingency plans for a market that isn’t hiring. So I started the services company and I started the local regional MSP and I grew that MSP for 12 years and then I had an opportunity to sell it. And I did, and I did that because I hit infamous age, maybe of a midlife crisis, maybe not. But I really realized that that was my opportunity to do something that I wanted to do for a long, long time. And that is dive into personal development, become an executive director, and talk about leadership and culture and team building and time management and goal setting and vision setting, all of that good stuff. And I did that for quite a while. And then Corona came. And so when we were sheltering at home, it exaggerates the fact that I was already working from home, but now I was working from home and not meeting anyone. And I came to a point where I said, you know, I’m kind of done being on my own. Let me get back into corporate. And so I got back, corporate became VP of support at Trilogy, which really meant managing a large group of people, exercising a lot of leadership team building stuff that I taught and doing a lot of really, really neat stuff that you can do as a leader in the corporate world that you cannot necessarily do as a consultant or on your own from home. So the point of the story, other than sharing a little bit of my context and history, is that the changes that led me through life had more to do with what happened in the world around me. Them with some decision or internal processes. I mean, the internal processes, as you heard part of it, but I was responding to where life took me and where life takes me. I go, I believe personally that when life presents me. An opportunity and it seems to be a bit adamant about me taking it, then there is probably something I need to learn from it. I take it, I see what happens, and so far life hasn’t disappointed me. I hope that answers.

TJ – 00:07:22: My next question, Yoram, as we sort of navigate this rapidly changing digital landscape. Curious to know about the dynamic between customer success support and a brand’s overall reputation, especially within the context of B2B or B2B to C SaaS companies. Especially, like in your experience, how pivotal has immediate and adept customer support been in sculpting a company’s public persona?

Yoram Baltinester – 00:07:45: 100%. And one of the things that I focus on in all of these companies is the area of post-sale customer-facing teams, there’s three of them. In the large picture, there’s three of them, or there’s three sections that sometimes one team does if it’s a startup company. There’s customer support, which used to be called technical support. And that is, you know, what happens if something doesn’t work, or what happens if something breaks, or, hey, I need help. That’s the help desk real. There is customer service, which is, hey, you charged me twice for next year. I want the refund, which is basically the same thing, only non-technical issues, right? It used to be called account management in some cases, right? Customer service is more of a B2C term, whereas account management is more of a B2B term. But in fact, their customer service. Then there’s customer success. Now, customer success is the new kid in town, right? Customer success. Is born out of a need and then the need was forgotten. That’s my take on it. Customer success was born when companies started to realize that they’re successful in moving people from onsite or co-located server to the cloud platform. Or what was the problem? The problem was that the industry told people, hey, it’s so much easier and cheaper now to just dump what you have and get on the cloud and we’re gonna help you with migration and all of that. What they didn’t realize at the beginning, they realized that a little bit into it is that if it’s easy to get on board with your platform, it’s also easier to get on board with your competitors platform. You need to be in customer success, the person who asked the customer, tell me, why did you even buy this? And the customer is going to say something. Now the customer success. The fundamental role is to understand what is the mental picture of what the customer calls success. How does success look like to the customer? Now, how do we get them there? How do we get them closer and closer and closer to that point so that they see constant positive improvement towards what they call success? If they see that, they’re satisfied. Notice that CSAT is not customer happiness. It’s customer satisfaction. The customer doesn’t have to be happy. They need to be satisfied. And they’d be satisfied if we’re getting them closer to the reason for which they bought our service. So how is that pivotal? Well, why would customers leave? Customers leave if they don’t get what they ask for. Now, sometimes the customer doesn’t articulate very well what they ask for. Well, that is where customer success comes in. Customer success needs to be the partway mind reader slash psychology slash interviewer that asks a question to understand what you really want. And get it there. Customer support has another part of the customer experience, right? Customer support is the person you call that you don’t want to call. When I ran my end-of-service provider firm, I used to tell people, you know, if I get a phone call at 9 o’clock at night, on my cell phone from a customer, there’s a few things that hold true. First of all, it’s probably a high level person in that customer company, because they’re the ones who have my cell phone number. The second thing that happens, these are smart people. The third thing that happens is right now they feel quite stupid. Because they have a problem, they couldn’t fix it on their own, they have to ask for help, and they’re frustrated about it, and they’re going to tell me about it. For 10 minutes before they even start telling me what’s going wrong. Well, you know, you’re on now that I have you on the line. Let me tell you about this and let me tell you about what happened last week. And I, and I love these conversations because they’ll give me a lot of feedback that I can work with, but I also have them because why do I have to have the customer frustrated and facing a problem at nine o’clock in order to tell me. Where customer success comes in. But then customer support, they hold the part of being the sponge that takes away and absorbs the frustration on the one hand, but then also the tool that fixes it on the other hand, so that at the end of that conversation, which hopefully can be as short as possible, the problem is solved and the customer had the opportunity to vent. Now a lot of customers support people that you talk to. They tell you that they don’t want to do that. But that’s the job. That’s the job description. It’s like being a nurse in a hospital. And so the part of understanding the customer and getting them to see progress, the part of fixing their problems quickly. And the part of taking care of whatever service issues that they have that aren’t technical, that are all part of the experience that you want to have them experience in order to create a reputation in the market that your marketing department can leverage, right? And so, what happens is either of these three functions, customer support, success, and service malfunctions. I’m being polite, right? If they malfunction, they give a subpar experience to the customer, what it’s going to hurt, it’s going to hurt your reputation. It’s going to reduce the number of testimonials that you get. And therefore, your marketing people will have less ammunition to amplify and make the case that you’re the best choice in the market. So it’s critical both to marketing, which feeds sales, by the way, and to maintaining your customers. We all know how hard and long it takes to build reputation and trust and how easy it is to break. Exactly. So I think these functions are literally, they’re not just pivotal, they’re the heart of the matter.

I believe that AI is a blessing. It’s going to revolutionize the user interface and how we interact with computing devices. But it’s not going to replace humans. I think humans will always have a role in customer support. AI can enhance their capabilities and allow them to focus on more specialized roles. So it’s really about finding that balance between AI and human support teams.

Yoram Baltinester

VP of CS at Trilogy

TJ – 00:14:27: Now that we’re talking about this and that we’re seeing a profound shift in customer support dynamics with the ascent of AI and automation, also with generative AI now, in your perspective, how do these technological advances interwine with the company’s reputation, especially in the contemporary digital age?

Yoram Baltinester – 00:14:45: There’s one thing that’s absolutely true. AI is going to revolutionize the user interface to everything. AI is going to be the way we communicate, the way we interact with computing devices. And God knows computing devices are probably anything around us. So what does it mean to support? Well, it depends to how you implement it. But I think that the most Critical change is going to be and I’m quite excited about it is going to be the following It’s not going to be the bots. It’s not going to be anything of the level zero that we call for people who may not have the same jargon. So let me explain, right? There’s the level zero, which is self-help. Let’s go level one, you know, simple questions. Then there’s level two that are question that need more involvement, more in-depth understanding of the software. And then in some cases, things get so difficult that you need level three. And sometimes some companies might not have a level three and they refer to really, really bad questions to engineering about which engineering will complain invariably, because it’s typically not helping their schedules. But let’s see what happens. So first of all, the first level is level zero. So level zero is self-help. If people were able to provide self-help to themselves, solve the problem on their own, then they will keep solving the problem on their own, and potentially they will solve more problem on their own. Now, does that mean that we fire everybody? No, we don’t. We just shift people who may have been dealing with level one to level two, from level two to level three. We just find more experts at what we’re doing. So let’s look at level one. Level one typically involves with identifying the customer, identifying the problem, identifying the most likely cause of the problem and suggesting the most likely route and then repeating that until the problem is solved. Or if you can’t solve the problem, you kick it to level two, right? Simple. Here is the most exciting thing. I’ve found over the years and especially during this past year where my work with trilogy is that. Well, AI, the more AI is capable of understanding 50 different ways that the customer might explain a problem, the faster it would deduce what is the correct root cause and suggest the correct solution. In level 2 technicians, what’s going to happen with them is because level 1 is going to be more efficient, then if you want to see negative stuff, then you can say, well, there, and then we can fire half of them. And I say, no, that’s ridiculous. Instead of firing half of them, you can offer them either to move into customer success if they’re more relationship inclined, or if they’re more technical inclined, they wanna dive deeper into the software, then you move them to level two. So AI, I think is a blessing and I don’t see anyone losing their job unless they are holding on to doing something that now doesn’t need to be done.

TJ – 00:18:17: While we’re on that Yoram, I think the next big thing for me to understand is, and certainly for the audience as massive experiences is, when we look into the realm of customer engagement, metrics like CSAT and NPS have taken center stage for the longest time and have been the pivotal indicators of a brand standing in reputation. Given the significance, how do you harness these metrics to sculpt and preserve an impeccable brand image? And what would be your sort of suggestion to the enterprise?

Yoram Baltinester – 00:18:47: So there comes a point where I advise people to not get addicted to metrics. Now, NPS, think about it. Here, let me ask you a question, right? On a scale of one to 10, how likely are you to recommend me to your friend who was also doing a podcast? Right? Now let’s assume that I’m not a 10 and not a 1. You’re stuck. It’s like am I seven? Am I eight is like what the heck does that mean? And we’re all being slaves to NPS because it has to be pretty exact, right? And customer satisfaction. So customer satisfaction is a little bit better. And customer satisfaction one that I really, really like. I don’t know if every audience, every member of the audience is gonna like my example, but I think it makes the point. I flew to New York last year and in the airport, as people sometimes do in the airport, I went to the restrooms. And when I was going to go out of the restrooms, I washed my hand and right above that device that blows the hot air so you wipe your hand dry, there were three buttons, a smiley button, a frowny button and an indifferent button. And they were aptly colored green, yellow and red. There were no questions asked, is just rate your experience with facilities, right? With the restroom. Well, now you’re going to get the result out of that. And it’s going to say something like, if you rate them at 150 and 0%, you’re going to get 75%. Or why is it 75%? Well, you don’t know. You just know that basically, customer level across a lot of consumers at this point is about 75%. And that would really sit down and think, well, what can we improve? You know, is it because… It’s like, how many times? Do we go to the maintenance and find that a stall ran out of paper? Do we ever, can we get to the point that each one of them has a spare? If it has a spare, what does it really mean? Does a customer, does a consumer have to replace them? So do we actually put two rolls of paper and make sure there’s always full? Whatever it is that they decide to do based on the information, is important, but I wouldn’t read that much into it now. Are they unimportant? No, I don’t think they’re unimportant. Is NPS obsolete? I don’t think it is obsolete, but I’m not sure I can actually bring out of it if it’s 8.1 or 7.9 or, I could understand whether it’s going up or down, but not too much. Where I think that the customer experience rating is going to reflect, it’s going to reflect in your reputation. It’s going to reflect in what people say about you. If people are talking about you, and let’s assume they talk positively about you, because if they do negatively, then your lifespan is short. But if people talk positively about you, do they do that when prompted? Do they do that without being prompted? Are they telling your friends, their friends, that you’re the best thing, right? Are you raving about how their life is easier because they used your platform? Employees, do you consistently get nominated, unprovoked by your employees for the best place to work in your job? Things like that. Can you quantify and rate your prospect experience? Because I can tell you that if we look at the employment market, the employment market is… Regardless if it’s a buyer or seller market, right? Regardless if it’s a company market or an applicant market. It’s a market, right? Because equally as much as the fact that there are 1,000 people competing for the job, there are also 100 companies competing for the best candidate. So the company is trying to sell the best candidate who’s out there and they have or have not identified them yet. That they are the best company to work for. What do you think about the applicant experience these days? It’s horrible. We hear that all around us, right? You open LinkedIn these days, you’d see a job post. It’s been posted for 23 minutes and it has 500 applicants. Happy about it, right? Applicants are not being responded to, so they’re not happy about it. Manager or recruiters are getting hundreds, if not thousands of applicants per role, so they’re not happy about it. They don’t have time to look at this. So now the stat says that hiring recruiter is going to look at a resume far less than a minute. Somebody even quoted me 15 seconds. On the average for that same document that somebody might have spent $200, $300, $500 to have an expert write for them. So the whole experience overall of that process is horrible. So however great the employee experience is, By the time somebody gets to get an offer from a company, they don’t feel like a winner. They feel like a survivor. They don’t feel like they won the race, they feel like they survived the squid games. So how does that work with but understand this. Your prospect, your applicant, your customer, your employee experience, they all make your reputation and they all come from the same thing which is the corporate culture. So the corporate culture is going to be in the root of all of these experiences. And that’s going to determine your reputation. And what your reputation is going to be is more important to me. And then PS score. Now, if we. Is to quantify reputation. I jump on it with all my five-and-a-half hands.

TJ – 00:25:41: Is there a measure for repetition quantification today? It’s a reputation promoter score.

Yoram Baltinester – 00:25:47: Well, yes and no. You know, Yelp comes to mind reminiscing on the times when Yelp actually had human reviews, and it wasn’t a mixed bag, and you can’t tell anymore whether it’s 20% human or 80% human. But yes, I mean, you could quantify it. But there isn’t a standard way of quantifying it. And the standard, unfortunately or fortunately, they’re not actually coming from somebody sitting down saying, well, how are we going to measure it? They’re going to, if you heard that phrase that says that the winning side writes history. Then what happens is you will have, let’s say customer success, right? Let’s look at that. There’s Tango, there’s Churn Zero, there’s all these platforms for customer success. Whoever wins or whoever is the biggest, whatever they use in order to count and tally and measure reputation is suddenly going to be the standard. It’s the de facto standard. And once it’s a de facto standard and you’re on platform A that has that standard and I’m trying as a salesperson to get you to move to platform B, you’re gonna ask me, well, does platform B has this metric? And I run to product management and I go, we gotta have that metric because I’m losing customers because we don’t have it. Next thing you know, we have it. And then suddenly the market kind of gravitates towards something that works, which may or may not be the best.

TJ – 00:27:29: One thing I just took back from this conversation is there is basically dual focus when it comes to reputation. One is the external brand perception in the marketplace and the internal sentiment tell it by employees. Now, the Excel part is kind of getting clearer the more we’re talking to. But diving into the employee sentiment or internal sentiment or the employee experience per se, how do you work to make sure that the brand resonates positively internally and that the team morale remains? High-end and upbeat.

Yoram Baltinester – 00:28:04: Well, these are two different questions. Because you could high end and upbeat and then you and I come from support in our origins. So I think everybody in support at one point or another experiences having to defend their software even though. It sucks. There’s something wrong with the software, but they have to defend it anyway. That can get put aside. As long as the culture is held. In high standard and consistent. So I call this the Velcro principle. It’s not something that I read anywhere. It’s just an acronym that I created, but it goes like this. You have your corporate values, right? Now corporate values, sometimes people look at them with a cynical way because if you work in a company that has a bunch of values on the plaque on the board at headquarters and nobody thinks about it twice and moreover, nobody cares, then everybody has justification and good reasons to be cynical towards it. But the values are there for a reason and when that reason is being satisfied, then it goes like that. The values are going to be interpreted according to the question, how are we going to express these values? What does loyalty means in action? What does loyalty means? How do we do loyalty? How do we do transparency? How do we do customer first? How do we do this, that and the other, which are all going to be leadership, right? How are we going to do leadership? When you go through this exercise and you express it, then you get a list of how to’s. It becomes your underlying grounds, your underlying foundation on which you take decisions. And we mentioned earlier, the decisive action protocol, the decisive action protocol that I created is a quick way to make good decisions quickly. And it is based on the values. And when you keep the values and the interpretation and what the meaning of the values is top of mind, when you have to make a decision, then you make a value based decision, which makes it a good decision. I’m not talking right about the outcome. The outcome could still be anything because there are other variables. But you make a good decision and you implement it. Now, here’s what happens when everybody keeps track and acts according to these principles, which exemplify the principles of the law. Values, right? When everybody does things in a consistent matter, then it becomes a question of, well, this is how we do things around here. Because we all do it the same and we all do it the same all the time. And the way we do things around here is the very definition I use for the term culture. Because what is culture? Culture is how we do things. And round here means in this context, in this company. It could be in this country, it could be in this religion group, it could be in this as fans of this football team, we do things in a certain way. So everybody is part of many cultures in that way. So now we’re consistent about the culture. Now, if you have a value-based culture, and everybody understands the culture, understands how to express the values, and does it in a consistent manner, not only did you get the culture, but culture is what everybody experiences. Now, if it’s your customer, where does it experience your culture? In the customer experience as provided by the post-sale customer-facing teams, customer support, customer success, and customer service, and then once a year with sales. If you’re an employee. Where do you experience the culture? Where you experience it with your interaction with your team, with your leader, and with your HR. If it’s a prospect, how do you experience the culture? Where do you experience it in your interaction with sales? If you’re an applicant for a job, you experience it with your interaction, or lack thereof, with HR and the hiring man. So then we get back to the experience and the experience creates a reputation and the reputation gets amplified by marketing. Leveraging reputation means you are going to do what it takes to be publicly proud of your reputation. You are going to publicize your great review, you are going to publicize your testimonials. But it all goes back to the V. It all goes back to the values. And if you have that continuum in place, then you have a consistent culture inside out. You don’t have to feel like you’re this two-faced kind of person where you have to complain about the software and you meet with product management or engineering, but rave about the software when you talk about it to a customer. That’s where people start feeling like they’re fake. Because they are. Now, if your value is transparency, that doesn’t mean that you need to either trash the company in front of a customer. Right, or lie to product management. You can find ways to communicate and work with all of that, but it’s the same old adage that says, If you’re talking about somebody or something or getting interviewed and you don’t have the answer or if you’re in support, tell them, I don’t know, I’m gonna get back to you. And they’re invariably going to appreciate this more than you’re trying to fudge an answer and potentially not getting it right. Or it’s going to be very clear that you don’t quite know what you’re talking about, but you’re still trying to look as if you’re an expert. People appreciate it when you say, I’ll get back and you get back to them, right? You got to keep your word, but it’s the same thing with software. You can be in support and say, hey, I see it. It’s probably a challenge. I can get back to you and confirm whether this is a software defect and or if there is a workaround and or whether we’re going to fix it and when do we anticipate fixing it and customers would appreciate it. Because especially in the business to business world where They also deal with customers of their own in B2B2C, and they know that, you know what, things happen, and we always have to figure it out. And then you can go back to engineering, and you don’t obviously have to be nasty about it, but go, hey, we found these 10 issues last week, and three customers three times was the same issue, so it’s kind of important. We had a kind of a spectrum that bled and bridged from support backwards into development, whereby as you went up in the level of support, you also gradually gained more access and visibility into the code. In that way, we created a kind of cooperation where high-level support could actually point not only the bug, but where it is in the code. So fixes could occur more frequently and faster. It also created personal appreciation. You probably might have seen in your past where engineering might look at support and say, well, they don’t know much about development and support. No, we actually do know development. And once they actually package it in the way that engineering decided and asked for it to be packaged and go, here’s the issue. Here’s where we think it is caused in the code and what the impact is to the customer. Then both elephant appreciate them and understand more the impact on the customer, which is going back to customer centricity, which seems to be growing and becoming the leading underlying principle for successful companies these days.

TJ – 00:37:04: Well, Yoram, this has been amazing, the whole discussion today and have one closing question for you. Believe me, we can go on and on this. There’s so much to talk about. And learn from you 100%. I think one hour is never enough. You are reflecting on all the lessons, experiences, and insights that you have shared today. If there was like one piece of advice that you would want our listeners. Enterprises, developers, whoever is listening to us. Enthusiasts. To take away about anything about reputation management, what would that be?

Internal reputation management is crucial. It’s about ensuring that the brand resonates positively internally and maintains high team morale. The Velcro principle is about consistency and coherence in corporate culture, customer experience, and reputation.

Yoram Baltinester

VP of CS at Trilogy

Yoram Baltinester – 00:37:43: Velcro, I’ll say it again, when Velcro, just if somebody wants to jot it down, perhaps, it’s like V stands for value, E stands for embodiment, right? How do you express the value or expression also with an E, right? And then L is leadership. Leadership means that you can’t ask your team members and then you’re somehow exempt from the values. You have to lead by embodiment. And that creates the customer experience, that’s the C, the reputation, that’s the R, and O stands for owning the market. Because if you do that right, you own the market. But if you don’t own the market, at the very least, you own your reputation. And owning the reputation is another way of saying you can be publicly proud of it. So Velcro it’s the one theme. I think that sometimes it gets divided in a non-natural way. When you talk about culture and you talk about customer experience and you say, okay, culture, culture is the responsibility of HR of people operations. Whereas customer experience is going to be the responsibility of customers facing teams, support and service. No, it’s one continuum. And at the very least, you have to have these two bodies talk together, manage it together, plan it together, instill it together in the team. But it’s a single continuum that starts from values and ends in owning your reputation. You cannot dissect it. You cannot split it in responsibility. It has to be done as a single project. And if you do it as a single project, then you’d have everybody aligned, everybody on the same page, everybody running the same thing, doing things the same way, creating consistent culture. I think that’s the most important thing to remember. It’s a single continuum.

TJ – 00:39:49: Owning your reputation. Awesome. Brilliant. What a way to end this, right? Yoram, Thank you so much for today. As I said, I mean, you know, this one hour was not enough. I think we should definitely spend more time in future to kind of dig in deep into maybe this podcast, or other events which we may have here. But it’s been a true pleasure listening from you, learning from experiences. I’m sure the audience would get done and turn out of this podcast once they’re listening. On that note, Thanks again.

Yoram Baltinester – 00:40:19: It was a pleasure being here, TJ. Thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to come back and discuss some more and other issues. And I thank you for the opportunity to express some of the things that I do believe and hold dear about this.

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